shadowkat: (Ayra)
[personal profile] shadowkat
I just flipped on The Buffy Marathon on Syfy...and the speech I landed on was..."and then there's people, millions of people, like happy meals on legs.." hence the above title reference. The series looks sort of low-budget in 2013, with the square screen and the lack of digital filming. But the writing is whip-smart. Just the right edge of wit married to pathos. Just in case, you may decide to take it too seriously, the writers always throw in a joke or two to ensure you don't.

Although the marathon choices are rather interesting - almost as if someone voted on which were the best episodes of the entire series, or the most plot-worthy, and only chose those for the marathon.

If you are curious here they are:

1)Welcome To The Hellmouth
2)The Harvest
3)Angel
4)Becoming - Part 1
5)Becoming - Part 2
6)Faith, Hope And Trick
7)Lovers Walk
8)The Wish
9)Bad Girls
10)Doppelgangland
11)Graduation Day - Part 1
12) Graduation Day - Part 2
13)Hush
14)Buffy Vs. Dracula
15)Fool For Love
16)Crush
17)The Body
18)Once More, With Feeling
19)Normal Again
20) Chosen

Clearly whomever did this list was not a fan of S7, S6, S4, or S2 for that matter. Yet quite adored S3 (actually S3 was obviously their favorite) and S5, with S1 coming in 3rd. No love for S7 though. Then again it is admittedly plot/mythology specific.

This is not the list I'd have chosen for a 20 episode marathon. Then again I'm struggling to figure out what list I would do. A Non-Plot oriented one for people who know the series and don't care, or plot-oriented? This is actually a lot harder than I thought. Buffy has arguably about 15-20 excellent episodes, but it's such a serial that you sort of have to put the not so great one's in there to figure out what is going on.


1. Welcome to the Hellmouth
2. Harvest
3. Angel
4. Lie to Me
5. Surpise
6. Innocence
7. Passion
8.Becoming Part I
9. Becoming Part II
10. Lover's Walk
11. The Wish
12. Dopplegangeland
13. Graduation Day I
14. Graduation Day II
15. HUSH
16. RESTLESS
17. Fool For Love
18. The Body
19. Once More With Feeling
20. Chosen

See? Hard.

Or Take II

1. Angel
2. School Hard
3. Lie to Me
4. Becoming I
5. Becoming Part II
6. Lover's Walk
7. The Wish
8. Dopplegangland
9. Graduation Day I
10. Graduation Day II
11. HUSH
12. This Year's Girl
13. Who Are You
14. Restless
15. Fool for Love
16. The Body
17. Once More with Feeling
18. Beneath You
19. Conversations with Dead People
20. Chosen


or Take III - the 15-20 arguably excellent/memorable episodes:


1. Lie to Me
2. Innocence
3. Passion
4. Becoming I
5. Becoming II
6. Lover's Walk
7. Dopplegangland
8. Hush
9. This Year's Girl
10. Who Are You
11. Restless
12. Fool for Love
13. Crush
14. The Body
15. Once More with Feeling
16. Dead Things
17. Normal Again
18. Beneath Me
19. Conversations with Dead People
20. Lies My Parents Told Me


I don't know. Glad I don't have to do that for a living.

Anyhow...back when I was watching Buffy in the late 1990s, during my gig at the evil library reference company...I had the following conversation with a work colleague/friend on the way home from work. We often rode the subway home together, having long chats about a variety of topics. Not Buffy - she considered it beneath her. Cultural dissonance exists in all climes.

Me: I can't seem to read anything. I get a few pages in and my attention wanders. What is wrong with me?
CW: Your working hard, brain is filled with info, can't fit more in. Plus stress. What you need is...a HAPPY BOOK.
Me: Didn't realize book's had emotions.
CW: No, I mean something light, stress reducing, fluffy, you don't have to remember, keep track of characters, can just enjoy. A light breezy read. (PAUSE) Have you ever read PD Wodehouse?

Now coming up with a list of light breezy books that aren't violent and are well-written isn't easy. Also by different authors. So far...I've come up with the following, but I've read them all:

* PD Wodehouse's Jeeves and Wooster
* William Goldman's Princess Bride (although not sure it qualifies)
* Harry Potter (again not sure it qualifies and a children's book)

Not sure of anything else. Jane Austen is almost too deep as is Louisa May Alcott. Terry Prachett is too punny and requires attention to foot-notes. Mark Twain requires too much concentration - he's a precise writer.

And I'm not talking about "airplane books" - ie the thriller or mystery of the week series or Gerogette Heyer. I mean fluffy books, that are witty. Are there any? I know there are for kids and young adults, which may explain the sudden influx of adult readers of young adult novels. But I burned out that genre a while ago.

Date: 2013-07-21 08:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] londonkds.livejournal.com
Have you tried Jasper Fforde? A few of the people on my reading lists really despise him, but I enjoy them. (The bad part is the punny names. Too many punny names.)

Date: 2013-07-21 08:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Most of my flist loves Jasper Fforde. I haven't tried him. And not sure I'd like it. On the other hand, how do I know, having never tried him?
The trouble is figuring out which book to read. Same problem I had with Prachett. I rather liked Amazing Maurice, but Monstrous Regiment bored me for some reason.

Date: 2013-07-21 09:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
I could never make a list of the best or my favorite Buffy episodes because my brain isn't oriented to list-making - I always want to make connections, not the other way around. (although I do have a short list of eps I think are very underrated in fandom.) Part of the problem is that almost all the episodes (besides a few MOTW ones early one) are very much serialized (I've watched several other tv shows since that I could easily watch out of order and not really miss anything.) A lot of people name Earshot as a favorite to show first timers, but then you've spoiled Band Candy.

I'm glad to see The Wish making an appearance on Syfy's list; Dopplegangland tends to steal the fandom spotlight. I probably shouldn't be surprised at the number of S3 eps. (Faith, Hope and Trick, really?) I find the season overrated.

The omission of This Year's Girl / Who are You is just...wrong. Those eps are a turning point for Faith, Buffy, Spike (it foreshadows the entire Buffy/Spike trajectory in S6 down to the dark sexuality and violation), and more subtly, Tara.

I'm assuming neither you nor the folks at Syfy are fans of Prophecy Girl? I consider that an essential episode; but I'd also name Nightmares, because Buffy's fear of losing her humanity, of being isolated physically and emotionally, is spelled out right there.

Date: 2013-07-21 11:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophist.livejournal.com
Yeah, I'd put PG on sk's first list, instead of Lover's Walk. I'd also replace The Wish and Doppelgangland with Bad Girls and Consequences. That's not because those are better episodes -- they aren't -- but because I think they hit the Faith arc and otherwise GD would seem to come out of nowhere.

Also, The Gift has to be on the third list, probably instead of Crush.

Date: 2013-07-21 11:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Having attempted to re-watch Lover's Walk today, I agree with you. I remember it being a whole lot better than it was. And you are right Bad Girls and Consequences probably should be there over The Wish and Dopplegangland. Having just seen part of The Wish again.

Date: 2013-07-22 12:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Also, The Gift has to be on the third list, probably instead of Crush.

I noticed the omission of the Gift, but I completely missed the presence of Crush, and - I'm sorry but not sorry. I couldn't stand watching it the first time (Buffy chained up and tortured? So not my thing. What was the runner up, Reptile Boy?) Fool for Love definitely belongs there but Crush isn't significant enough.

Intervention would be another good choice, actually - Buffy's vision quest, the Buffybot; and Spike being tortured for Dawn is one of the biggest moments in his arc. If you haven't seen that then nothing about his interaction with Buffy afterwards is going to make sense.

Interesting that they put Normal Again - it's one of my personal favorites but that probably isn't a fandom consensus, from what I've seen.

Date: 2013-07-22 12:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophist.livejournal.com
I'm not sure about NA. Lots of people loved it on first view, but there was a significant minority that just hated it. SK can correct me, but I think it would rate pretty high -- it's just that those who dislike it *really* dislike it.

Date: 2013-07-22 01:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
My entree into fandom was via the AV Club (Noel Murray reviewed the eps as a first-time viewer, just as i was watching to the first time) and NA got a lot of vitriol from the commenters there; but it seems to be more "loved" her in LJ fandom, although I admit that's a generalization on my part. (And I apologize if that's the case because after a year I can't claim to have any really accurate sense of the "scope" of this fandom.)


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Oh wait, one more thing....

Date: 2013-07-22 01:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
I just peeked at your LJ - are you THAT Sophist (Mark Fields)? I read your essays over at the AV Club reviews, if you're one and the same *fangirls*

Re: Oh wait, one more thing....

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Date: 2013-07-22 01:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
No, you are correct. It's a divisive episode. The people who disliked it were in the minority. Television critics, academics, and people who reviewed or wrote meta heavily on the series - loved the episode, because honestly there's a lot to analyze in it and it's experimental in how it uses film and narrative structure.If you are a film buff - you'll love it to pieces. An episode that is fun to re-watch from an intellectual film buff stand-point. After you lose your emotional investment or distance yourself...than it is an interesting episode.
But grueling from an emotional perspective. Shippers tended to hate it.
Non-shippers tended to love it. There were exceptions of course on both sides, I'm speaking generally.

ETA: can't of course comment on current fandom. I'm not really a part of it. And I have no knowledge/interest in AV Club. But the fan boards when it aired in 2002? Were largely positive.
Edited Date: 2013-07-22 02:10 am (UTC)

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Date: 2013-07-22 12:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Crush is admittedly a dark episode with some cringe-worthy moments. But it is also a character turning point. When Spike actually does declare his love...but does it in a characteristically twisted manner, with Dru goading him on.

I love the episode for the character moments. And it has some great ones.
It delves into Spike's psychology.

My problem with the Gift is ...well it is sort of silly. The whole plan is dumb. And there's far too much time with Dawn/Glory and Ben. The season enders outside of maybe Becoming, always felt campy and over the top to me.

There's subtle touches to Crush and the blend of music and character...is interesting. Plus, I admittedly adore Drusilla. But I also haven't watched the episode in a long time. I may feel differently now. Memory tends to make things better than they actually are.

Date: 2013-07-22 01:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Memory tends to make things better than they actually are.

Although it's always gratifying on the rare occasions something's as good or better than I remembered. (At some point I'll watch S3 again, and who knows how I'll feel this time.

The season enders outside of maybe Becoming, always felt campy and over the top to me.

How do you rate Restless?

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Date: 2013-07-21 11:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Oh I like Prophecy Girl well enough, just prefer other episodes to it.
Although it is better than Harvest. But you sort of need it to understand the series.

It's hard to do lists with serials. They didn't do a bad job considering this was meant to be a teaser marathon. I'm guessing they just got sub rights to Buffy. And are advertising with the marathon. Now all they need is Angel and Dollhouse, and they can do a Whedon weekend.

Date: 2013-07-22 12:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
S3 had two things going for it - 1) the best production values, next to maybe S4 and S5, for some reason the visual quality is better for most of the episodes. And 2) a cohesive plot that involved all the characters and didn't focus on romance. Romantic plots tend to be focus only on one or two characters. S3 and S5 focused on the slayer mythology - which is another reason...they tend to be favorites with people who aren't shipping a specific character. Add to that - if you were a Xander and fan, S1, S2,S3 and S4 were his best seasons.

Date: 2013-07-22 12:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
I'm sure I would have enjoyed S3 a lot more if Angel hadn't been in it *magical snow? really? Pfft* I'd argue that too much of the season is taken up by the on-again, off-again relationship of Angel and Buffy with diminishing returns.

Faith was such a fascinating character and I would have liked to have seen more of her, and more Buffy & Faith interaction. As it is, Faith is missing from quite a few episodes, then Bad Girls happens rather late in the season (for some reason my memory placed it earlier than it is) so then there's this "rush" or intensification near the end of things.

I do enjoy the Mayor, though; and his relationship with Faith is almost as fascinating to me as that of Buffy and Giles.

Date: 2013-07-22 12:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
To be fair, Angel isn't really in S3 that much. He pops up, but his screen time is minimal. And Boreanze looks bored - because he is given little to do outside of a handful of episodes.

The B/A relationship had sort of run its course by the end of S3. There was nothing else they could do. The angst was so over-the-top that it is actually funny in places and eye-rolling in others. I tried to re-watch Lover's Walk and Graduation Day today, and couldn't stop giggling at the angst. I loved it at the time, but now...years later, after watching so many other similar things...including the Twilight movie, it seems rather silly.

So yes, it does drag the season down a bit. Spike was actually more interesting in S7 - because for the life of me, I couldn't figure out how the writers could get the couple past Seeing Red and Spike's guilt.
Angel after S2...got back with Buffy much faster...and the conflict was basically, we can't be together because of the curse, which got old after a bit. With Spike, it was far more complicated. Also, unlike B/A, we weren't even sure that there was a B/S or if Buffy loved him or could love him. Much more friction and conflict.

I honestly think the writers screwed up how they brought both Spike and Angel back in S3 and S7. They should have drawn it out a bit more,
and made it more ambiguous for the audience. We knew for both characters by literally the second or fifth episode that they were good guys. There was no suspense. The writers made a huge mistake telling the audience what happened to Spike in S6. Or for that matter that Angel was good in Amends. They should have made it less clear...like in Enemies. If the whole season had him acting like he did in Enemies, except with Buffy not in the loop, it might have been more interesting.

Whedon didn't know what to do with Angel and Spike...which showed. He reluctantly added them. And lacked the imagination to really play with them.

Sorry that was a bit of a ramble...worrying about work tomorrow, so distracting myself. ;-)
Edited Date: 2013-07-22 12:47 am (UTC)

Date: 2013-07-22 01:26 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
I tried to re-watch Lover's Walk and Graduation Day today, and couldn't stop giggling at the angst. I loved it at the time, but now...years later, after watching so many other similar things...including the Twilight movie, it seems rather silly.

I'm sure S2 would have felt the same if Angel hadn't lost his soul. That entire storyline made that season, and it's not even the entire season but that's what we remember. So without that - S3 Bangel just bored me to know end. (Why should the audience care if even the actors are bored of it?)

for the life of me, I couldn't figure out how the writers could get the couple past Seeing Red and Spike's guilt.

I remember watching the first time last year (I saw the entire series in three weeks) and when Lessons started I was already looking at Robin as a potential partner for Buffy. (But my default was always that I just wanted her to be happy. Clearly, I did NOT know Joss yet.) I knew Spike would come back but it didn't occur to me for some time that Spike would be her "man" again that season. As you say, how were they going to come back from SR?

They should have made it less clear...like in Enemies.

I think you're right - that could have made both seasons more interesting. *ponders* I did like Enemies quite a bit last year, but it bothered me to no end that Buffy was bothered by the "Angelus" act, not because it brought back bad memories of the year before - but because watching him with Faith made her jealous? SRLSLY? That struck me as horribly dumb.

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Date: 2013-07-22 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] owenthurman.livejournal.com
1. I Robot .. You, Jane
2. Some Assembly Required
3. Reptile Boy
4. Bad Eggs
5. Go Fish
6. Dead Man's Party
7. Amends
8. Fear Itself
9. Where The Wild Things Are
10. Primeval
11. Triangle
12. Wrecked
13. Gone
14. As You Were
15. Two To Go
16. Grave
17. Bring On The Night
18. Empty Places
19. End Of Days
20. Chosen

Date: 2013-07-22 06:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Some of those episodes are among the least liked - which tickles me as I always enjoy seeing "outliers". I think IRYJ is incredibly underrated and I was taken aback when everyone said it was "one of the worst". WTF? It introduces Jenny Calender (and the exchange between her and Giles when he asks "Who are you?" is super-creepy and sad in hindsight of Passion.) Plus it was the first time I recall being genuinely frightened for Willow that her trusting nature would get her hurt and she figured things out just in time; the last time we see that is Beer Bad when she gives Parker a verbal smackdown.

DMP is one I haven't watched again because it's almost too painful - and that's a good thing? Most "arguments" on tv don't feel like genuine fighting, and the ones in DMP and EP do, (whatever the wonkiness of EP). Arguments IRL are uncomfortable, it SHOULD be hard to watch them, or for me it's not real.

Date: 2013-07-22 10:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
So...arguably the Worst episode list? OR the most divisive and controversial?
If so...

Controversial - on the boards:

1. The Pack
2. Reptile Boy
3. Go Fish
4. Dead Man's Party
5. Amends
6. Doomed
7. Where the Wild Things Are
8. Family
9. I Was Made To Love You
10. Spiral
11. Wrecked
12. Gone
13. Dead Things
14. As You Were
15. Seeing Red
16. Grave
17. Showtime
18. Get it Done
19. Lies My Parents Told Me
20. Empty Places

List of the worst episodes?

1. I Robot...You Jane
2. Out of Sight Out of Mind
3. Inca Mummy Girl
4. Reptile Boy
5. Some Assembly Required
6. Bad Eggs
7. Go Fish
8. Beauty and the Beasts
9. Amends
10.Beer Bad
11. Where the Wild Things Are
12. Family
13. Spiral
14. All the Way
15. Wrecked
16. Older and Far Away
17. As You Were
18. Showtime
19. First Date
20. Empty Places

Date: 2013-07-22 10:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophist.livejournal.com
A few other candidates I see mentioned a lot as "worst": Teacher's Pet, Living Conditions, A New Man, Gone, Doublemeat Palace, Two to Go.
Edited Date: 2013-07-22 10:51 pm (UTC)

Date: 2013-07-23 12:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] red-satin-doll.livejournal.com
Doublemeat Palace,

Another one for my "people hate this episode? Really?" I mean, I love Buffy and that costume makes me cringe but have I been in those situations, with those stupid "teamwork" posters and sterile breakrooms and absurd interviews? Absolutely. I thought it was an incisive portrait of that sort of soul-sucking employment in modern America.

I'll add to that list the aforementioned IRYJ, Beer Bad, (Living Conditions and A New man are considered worsts as well?), OAFA, Wrecked (for the Buffy and Spike, not Willow). I don't really hate WTWTA but I haven't watched it a second time so I didn't love it either.

Date: 2013-07-23 12:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophist.livejournal.com
People who worked in the fast food industry all loved it. I never did, so I couldn't really relate to it. I get the idea, but it didn't resonate emotionally because of my lack of experience.

But yeah, it got a LOT of criticism.

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Date: 2013-07-23 01:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
I think Owen put those episodes on his list.

I was going to put Teacher's Pet and Living Conditions, but couldn't remember the name of it.

Ted is another one that gets on worst lists as does the one...with the Freddy Krueger monster...can't remember the name of it - it's a stand-a-lone in S2.
Phases does too. And so does HIM. Lots of people hate Lies My Parents Told Me (it worked for me because I got to see DB Woodside get the crap kicked out of him... plus Spike flashbacks, win-win.) Normal Again is fairly controversial. As is Dead Things.

Listening to Fear, Buffy vs. Dracula, Shadow, Into the Woods, I Was Made to Love You, Family, Triangle, the second to last episode of S5 before the Gift where Willow ventures into Buffy's head...all are on worst lists that I've seen.

Date: 2013-07-23 01:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sophist.livejournal.com
Killed by Death is the one you're thinking of. The S5 ep was The Weight of The World.

I think that every single episode has viewers who hated it. I guess that's inevitable.

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