shadowkat: (Default)
[personal profile] shadowkat
Woke up to dense fog this morning which still appears to be dense. The temperature is supposed to rise to a rather balmy 56 degrees. I have no idea what that is in Celsius.

Highly aggravated. Feel profoundly stuck and want snipe at things. Hopefully it'll pass.

On a side note, one of my uncles has announced on Facebook that his...supernatural Christmas thriller about the birth of Jesus has stayed in Amazon's Top Ten list in...Denmark for three weeks.
Yes, I said Denmark. This was not a misprint. He's doing the happy snoopy dance or as he put it Snoopy is dancing because it's on the Amazon top ten list in Denmark. I restrained myself from telling him, "it's "the "happy snoopy dance" NOT Snoopy is dancing". Seriously, Denmark? I haven't read the book - the story isn't my cup of tea or coco as the case may be. (In that I don't tend to like preachy Christian/religious supernatural thrillers...I have enough problems with Jim Butcher.)

Talking about stories that don't work for you or rather plot-threads or tropes that take you out of the story or make you stop reading...

There's about four or five in fanfiction and specifically genre fiction that will make me stop watching or give up on the story entirely. These are narrative devices or tropes or whatever you want to call them because really drawing a blank here - that disrupt the story for me personally and make me stop reading.


1. The Sire Bond. This is basically the hold that the vampire who sires another has over them. In short, I sired you, now you are my sex slave because I turned you into a vampire. I'm your maker and now you are my slave.

Forgetting the gross incestuous implications for a minute...I find it silly And it has pulled me out of various stories...regardless of the writer. I don't think anyone has pulled it off. I stopped reading Dracula by Bram Stoker in part because of it and he created the stupid trope. I rather liked what Joss Whedon did with it - which was make fun of it and shrug it off.

Fanfic writers and romance writers invariably consider it romantic or cool and overdo it. The gist of it is...I didn't do these things, my maker made me do them...so I get a "get out of jail" free card. In short I was under his or her control.

2. Loss of Character Agency - the Devil Made Me Do it storyline. Or I was possessed by an evil spirit. Or under mind control.

Unfortunately this bit has been over-done. I've only liked in some situations - examples when it works? Spike in S7 Buffy, with the trigger. I like the trigger and the psychology behind it.
He didn't really lose his agency, he gave it up - so he wouldn't have to feel pain. So he does take responsibility for it. Or in S4 Buffy - with Riley...who fights the control of Professor Walsh. Or Clockwork Orange...also done with Spike in Buffy - the attempt to change or modify behavior. That is interesting and builds plot and character, because the character is active, not passive.

What is not interesting is what they did with Angel. Oh, I lost my soul - it's all Angelus fault.
Or oh I was possessed by the evil Twilight...or in short someone else's puppet against my will.
They do this a lot in comic books. It's always annoying. And the character doesn't change or grow.
We just go back to the way things were. There's no real plot progression. And it happens again and again, and again and again her or she is excused.

3. Soul Mates...it's EPIC!

Oh please.

Two characters meet, they exchange five words, and its instant love. And of course continues forever. They get involved with other people, but are always drawn back to each other...because we are each others one true love. The romeo/juliet syndrom...forgetting of course that they died.
It's all fine and well for about five months...then after a bit one gets tired of the speechifying.
And groping. There's no plot progression, no character advancement. It's just OMG, I love you so much I will die! Bored now. The characters are passive - love controls them. They have no choice in the matter. And the story doesn't move it hovers.

4. The Oppressive Love Triangle, which is only there to create conflict for the One True Love.


Often a third character is introduced, who is hot and sexy, and used to pry the OTL or OTP apart.
They don't of course, because we must have the epic love. But it creates conflict. The pitfall of this approach is sometimes the third character is more interesting, less passive, more aggressive and more proactive to the plot. The third character may change and evolve due to the unrequited love, while the central two remain stagnant.

It's okay for about one or two seasons or five minutes, but if the writer doesn't move on and keeps the love triangle past a certain point - we start to wonder about the characters sanity.

5. The Grudge Story Line - or have a character you don't like do horrible things or bash them to prove a point.

Mainly in fanfic, but also a stand-by in long running soap operas and comic books, unfortunately. Often writers will feel the need to make a character they don't like and don't want the readers to like - do something that will piss the reader's or audience off. ie. "This is supposed to be a villain - you are supposed to love to hate them, you nitwits! And be rooting for Character A over here!" Often the action is either out of character or would have been in character a year or so ago, but isn't now - because the writers evolved the character over the course of the last three years. But now, they want to set them back a bit...for whatever reason. The audience thinks wait, I thought XYZ was on the path to redeemption. Why did they do that? That makes no sense. Damn. This alienates your reader and audience, don't do it.

In fanfic it's worse - often they'll take a character that other's love and make them horrible in the fic. The Grudge Fic.

6. Saint to Sinner and back again. Rinse and Repeat as needed.

They also do the opposite...in which they take a character they've turned darker, then suddenly out of the blue redeem them. The character is saintly again. There's no build-up. Or anything.
Or they'll build up to it - but just over two episodes...after spending five episodes making them dark. The audience has whip lash. There's really no in-between, they are either evil or saintly and we bounce back and forth.


Okay, came up with 6. Feel free to share yours..if you feel so inclined.

Date: 2012-12-02 04:01 pm (UTC)
ann1962: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ann1962
Rape trope. Especially if it's followed by #3 or #4.

Date: 2012-12-02 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Actually it's often connected with 1-4. Which is highly annoying.
I don't think romantic fiction handles it well, and genre certainly doesn't.

Daytime Soaps have done everything you can possibly think of regarding the rape trope. And I do mean everything. No stone unturned.

I do hate it though and in particular in connection with the above list.
Often it's used as a plot point or twist...a means to break up OTP or a means of re-inforcing it. It's also been used, far too often in genre, to remind the audience that the character is a bad guy. So...they have him rape the heroine, to remind us he's bad and needs to be redeemed. Or that she must be with the other guy.

Date: 2012-12-02 04:37 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kikimay
Gah! I need to share this list!

Date: 2012-12-02 07:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Go ahead...I don't think there's anything in there that is too personal. ;-)

Date: 2012-12-02 08:03 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] kikimay
It's a really good list. I especially agree on 3, 4 and 5.

Date: 2012-12-02 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cactuswatcher.livejournal.com
Re: Denmark. It's one of my favorite places, a small country and very nice. I'd be thrilled if it were my story, too. Yes, it's nice to be a big fish in a small pond. Even if it's one you hadn't really considered dipping into. ;o) I can't say why the Danes are taken with your uncle's religious story. But once in Copenhagen I had to fend off a Danish Jehovah's Witness in the square in front of the central rail station, by explaining that there was no point in me taking a copy of his Watchtower since I couldn't read Danish!

My biggest story turn off? Churning through relationships (starting and ending them and often restarting them) for no other reason than jerking the reader/viewer around.


Date: 2012-12-02 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Oh, nothing against Denmark. I just find the randomness of it...funny.
Is Denmark more religious or into supernatural novels about Xmas than elsewhere?


My biggest story turn off? Churning through relationships (starting and ending them and often restarting them) for no other reason than jerking the reader/viewer around.

Oh God, yes. A soap opera standby...let's see we've had X sleep with everyone in the cast, and we've run out of characters and can't afford to add more people, I know we'll start over.

Or...our ratings are down, let's break up A and B, then we'll reunite them briefly during May sweeps...only to break them up again during November sweeps...and reuniting them again during Feburary sweeps...

I can't help but wonder if there were only 6 episodes a season and no sweeps, if we would get more story and less whip-lash.

Date: 2012-12-02 05:02 pm (UTC)
liliaeth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] liliaeth
My biggest turn off... a lack of tension.

This may be silly, but the one thing most likely to stop me from reading a story is if nothing actually happens.

For example, two people are in love, they get together, they angst a bit, but without anything actually in the way of them getting together, and then they sleep together, promise eternal love, end of story....

I've seen a few fics like that and it's booooooring as hell.

Date: 2012-12-02 07:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Not at all...one of my problems as well.

Stories require some obstacle or conflict for the characters to over-come, it can be external or internal...but you have to have something.

Date: 2012-12-02 08:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ponygirl2000.livejournal.com
I'll offer the caveat that I think an author can get away with anything if the writing's good enough. I've certainly enjoyed books or shows that should put me off but don't because they do it so well. That said - as a riff on your #2, something that really bugs me is loss of reader agency, when we're told and expected to feel a certain way or draw conclusions about characters' actions that absolutely have to be the way the author intended or the story's universe won't work. Like say the series 24 where Jack was constantly put in situations where he just had to torture someone and his actions were always supposed to be admirable while anyone who opposed him was clearly shown to be wrong and punished for it. Or another Jack on Lost who we kept being told was a natural leader yet whose decisions always worked out badly. See also Angel constantly called a champion - which the show to its credit later mocked and subverted but I got the feeling at the time they wanted us to believe.

Date: 2012-12-02 11:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
I'll offer the caveat that I think an author can get away with anything if the writing's good enough. I've certainly enjoyed books or shows that should put me off but don't because they do it so well.

Yes and no.

No one to date has sold me on the number #1. And there's some very good writers who have tried. LOL!

Shakespeare however, and Sondheim/Bernstein did a decent job with # 3 (One True Love - I think that is number 3?) Romeo and Juliet, Joss Whedon, Stephanie Meyer and Julie Plec not so much.

Trying to think of a writer, outside of maybe Shakespeare who invented some of these, who has sold me on any of the above (outside of 1, which no one has sold me on)? Can't think of anyone...maybe, no, Whedon lost me most of the time when he tried it.

That said - as a riff on your #2, something that really bugs me is loss of reader agency, when we're told and expected to feel a certain way or draw conclusions about characters' actions that absolutely have to be the way the author intended or the story's universe won't work.

You mean audience/reader suspension of disbelief? Or something else...
more like...complicit agreement with or ...just going along with the writer's moral agenda whatever that may be?

24 lost me on both. 1) I was supposed to believe that Jack could do all these things within a 24 hour time period, when I knew for a fact that it takes at least four hours to drive into LA each morning.
2) I was supposed to think that Jack would obtain great and useful information through torture. No, that's not possible. When someone is tortured they will tell you basically anything to get you to stop, whether or not its true...is anyone's guess. No...this was "revenge fantasy stuff" - let's torture the evil terrorists. (so yes, I think I agree..)

Vamp Diaries is losing me for similar reasons...as did for that matter Angel, Lost, Dollhouse, BSG, and Buffy.

It does take you right out of the story, doesn't it? You're far too busy arguing with the writer about the plot dynamics, universe, world-building choices, and/or character motivations which are supposed to further his/her moral message or general theme to enjoy the tale.

Although to be fair to Angel...I'm still not entirely sure what the writers intended there. Nor am I certain the writers know for that matter. There appears to have been a difference of opinion in the writing room. One group thought Angel could be redeemed or was on a journey of redemption, another thought he didn't need to be redeemed, since Angel and Angelus were two separate entities, and a third thought he couldn't be redeemed and was just evil. The disagreement made for some very confusing story-threads. Interesting, but confusing.

Edited Date: 2012-12-02 11:31 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-03 02:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spikesjojo.livejournal.com
The Ann Rice effect - in one of her later books she turned Lestat into something that had all the agency of a piece of Samsonite luggage. I hate that but it can be done with excellent writing. That's my caveat too.

Date: 2012-12-03 03:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
But as beergoodfoamy points out below...it is VERY hard to pull off well. Partly because it has been over-done and is now cliche. Which means to do that story - you are basically fighting a million other bad stories.

I'd challenge people to come up with five writers who have done it well. Or just one. Of course the problem with writing is that's subjective.

What's great writing to one person, is horrific to another...or so I've learned.

Date: 2012-12-03 03:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spikesjojo.livejournal.com
I agree though I suspect Bujold might have managed it in one of her Miles books - but only for a chapter at most. I think that's why I put down some romance stories but I'm kinda easy, though. I'll put up with each of these if I like a story enough. OTH - when someone combines two, that's where the real trouble comes in for me.

Date: 2012-12-04 12:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Which one did Bujold do? (Only read Cordelia's Honor, haven't read the Miles books).

Agreed - the combination of two of them...ugh. But the problem is in part the overuse, I think. I liked each of these tropes initially or when I first encountered them, but they've been done to death now. So I see all the problems.

I want to blame Stephanie Meyer - who somehow managed to combine all six of the above tropes, along with the rape trope, in her Twilight novels...yet still sold millions. The mind boggles. So as a result, we have all these professional copy-cats.

But, to be fair, I think they may have been hitting the saturation point before Meyer, Meyer just sort of threw them over the cliff...well Meyer, and her followers or copy-cats.

Date: 2012-12-04 06:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spikesjojo.livejournal.com
I love Cordelia's Honor - Shards of Honor is a favorite of mine. But you have to read The Warriors Apprentice. Miles is a credit to both mom and dad. He is also an sf version of Tyrion on speed. Much younger and less abused but the same humor and inner qualities. He also has Bothari as a guardian. And Bothari's daughter...and Gregor. Even has that idiot Ivan (the one born during battle).

As to the question - i think it was cryonics and/or healing gel.

Yeah, Meyer is so depressing because she knocked Harry Potter off, and is training kids to be passive and needy.

I will agree that there are times when a character is so OOC they are acting like schoolgirls. Even then - look at Tea and Biscuits - a classic. Sometimes I have to put it down and other times I love it. I think the tipping point for me is bad spelling and grammar. That's where I give two paragraphs and seldom more. It's too bad because sometimes they have good ideas. Other times they have everyone above and more.
Edited Date: 2012-12-04 06:04 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-02 11:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com
For extra "huh?" about your uncle, you might be interested to know that there is no Amazon.dk. If you're in Denmark and want to buy books from Amazon, you have to go through one of the British, German, French, US etc branches. So as far as I know, they don't even have an official Danish top ten list. If there is an unofficial one, you probably don't have to sell a huge amount of books to get on it. (And generally speaking Danes, like all Scandinavians, tend to be pretty secular and irreligious - of course, there are always tiny minorities who make up for it by being extra devoted.)

And yeah, I pretty much agree with your irk factors. All of them can probably be done well - I'm firmly convinced that there's no trope that's universally awful - but damn, they're overused and very hard to get right.

Date: 2012-12-03 03:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Very weird on the Denmark thing...so he either sold a lot of this book to get on the Danish top ten, or his source is less than reliable?
I'm guessing the second. Because while he's a decent enough writer...this book well...here's a synopsis of Fulfillment in Amazon:


In the drumbeat of a million raindrops comes a darkness marching to overpower the world where you and I live. We stand by without sensing the evil, never hearing the constant din of battle over our hearts, never feeling the bombardment upon our souls, never glimpsing the awesome power of our defenders. How can we live in this world and yet be so ignorant of the other? Like us, Mary lived in happy ignorance. Then in the roar of the beast and the hideous faces of the angry demons scampering across her bedroom floor, she became the central figure in a drama beyond her understanding. Fulfillment is the first century suspense drama with a huge twist of horror when Satan discovers he isn’t messing with an ordinary teenage girl. This kid has moxie and connections in high places. Fulfillment will change the way you think about the first Christmas. One of my Amazon reviewers called it “… the most unique version of the Christian Nativity story ever written.” I wrote the story by first asking: What was Satan up to while God was going about the business of sending his son to save the world? In my story, Satan sets out to stop the birth of Christ. Since Jesus is too powerful to take on directly, he decides to kill the mother before Jesus is born. Of course you know how the story ends. Jesus was born in Bethlehem. The suspense, horror and awe in my novel occur on the journey. If the idea of Satan hungering for your soul doesn’t keep you awake at night, read Fulfillment. It will.


Eh...it just occurred to me reading that synopsis that my uncle may have been watching the Terminator movies while writing this? The plot arc sounds vaguely familiar...sort of similar to the plot of Terminator 1.

Not exactly something I see making the best seller lists. I mean Christian literature has a nitch...but I'd think it would make the top ten in the midwestern US over Denmark???

All of them can probably be done well - I'm firmly convinced that there's no trope that's universally awful - but damn, they're overused and very hard to get right.

Not helped by the fact that Stephanie Meyer pretty much ran through all them in her series, and every single solitary urban gothic romance novelist has done the same thing. Overused is an understatement.

Whedon came closest to doing them well - by sort of mocking them. But I have yet to see anyone pull off #1. Not that I'm looking all that hard. ;-) (Number #1 is for some reason or other a favorite of vampire porn fanfic writers...it has something to do with the sex slave fantasy, I think. But it so incredibly dumb. A couple have shamelessly mocked it..)
Edited Date: 2012-12-03 03:17 am (UTC)

Date: 2012-12-03 07:14 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com
I'm guessing this is an e-book? Because e-books haven't really taken off in Denmark yet, they're about a fraction of a percent of the entire book industry. So to get on the top ten list of a format nobody reads for a retailer nobody uses... why, we could be talking about dozens of sold copies, haha.

Date: 2012-12-04 12:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Yep. Most likely. And knowing my uncle he's probably joking about it being successful because it sold 12 copies in Denmark. I get the snark from my father's side of my family and my uncle (weirdly) is one of the king's of it.
That explanation works for me...at any rate.


Date: 2012-12-03 02:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spikesjojo.livejournal.com
Harsh - but I understand the frustration.

However, I think tropes are a useful writing tool for beginners, and folks sharpening their skills. The give space to concentrate on skills - internal monologue, balance of thoughts and sensory, when to dramatize and to summarize, creating an organic plot, character driven plot points, etc. The challenge for either new or old writers is to bring a fresh sense to the trope. I find it's more useful to look at what they're doing right, and point it out. And point out if something doesn't work for me - if they want to engage, fine.

Right now I am working on sire/child and trying to go somewhere other than true love - it's kinda fun to subvert the trope and try to make it mine. That's another thing writers might try - The Princess Bride effect. Not sure if I have the skills warmed up yet, but trying.

There have been stories I put down because they weren't fresh for me and found others who loved them. Each person decides where the line is crossed for them on each story they take the time to read. I think that's where you're going on this part of the rant.

Date: 2012-12-03 03:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spikesjojo.livejournal.com
Uh, channeling my inner teacher there.

/gets off soapbox/

Date: 2012-12-04 12:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Happens to all of us...including myself on occasion. ;-)

Date: 2012-12-03 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] berric.livejournal.com
The whole Soul Mates, One True Love thing bugs me too, it is one of the problems I have with Once Upon a Time.

I also really hate love triangles.

Ah #5, Ron the Deatheater trope. I also hate this one, especially when they are bashing a character that I love because the author sees them as a threat to their prefered character or ship.

With #2 I do like it when the character in question takes responsibility for what they have done despite having the out of not being fully in control.

I will stop reading something if the author has a character do something that I feel they would not do.

Date: 2012-12-03 11:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Agreed...if the author or writer has a character do something that is completely OCC for me, then I stop watching and reading. Have divorced more tv shows due to this problem and stopped reading a lot of books..mainly romance novels, thrillers, horror, comics and mysteries...those genres seem to attract these types of things like flies.
Page generated May. 23rd, 2025 07:27 pm
Powered by Dreamwidth Studios
OSZAR »