Things to get off my chest before bed
Apr. 30th, 2010 11:59 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkat1. Mariah Hargay, co-editor of the IDW Angel comics, has managed to do the impossible, talk me into trying Willingham (who I despise) Angel comics again. Which up until now, I thought was impossible. But her posts on Spike and the comics - have me intrigued, I'm actually really curious about their story-arc now. Scott Allie, of Dark Horse, on the other hand, has not only managed to persuade me to give up on the Buffy Comics entirely but to possibly throw out the ones I currently own - as misogynistic twaddle. Interesting. I don't know what I'm going to do at the moment. But if I was in a comic book store right this second - that's what I would do. Not really sure what the lesson is here? Except that maybe Dark Horse - should leave the fan interviews/interaction to their head writer/producer - Whedon (also, see if they can snag Mariah from IDW and fire Allie's ass while their at it), and IDW should keep their writers as far away from the fans as possible. Whedon and Mariah know how to talk to fans, Willingham, Allie, and Williams really don't.
2. There was a question this week that peaked my interest and I meant to answer last night in a post but got sidetracked and wrote about Wonder Woman and feminism - blame flist for that one.
Anyhow - the question was - what would it take for you to stop watching a tv series?
I want to extend that question to what would it take for you to stop reading or watching a fictional series - book, comics, television, or film?
For me, it depends. Can be a variety of things. But usually - it's just plain boredom. I've lost interest. There are situations...rare ones, that I stop reading or watching because I'm offended or find it the content unreadable or unwatchable. As there are also rare instances in which the characters are well, no longer recognizable.
The last two situations apply to tv shows or books I was fannish about or loved then gave up on out of abject disappointment.
There are also situations in which I realize the writer has run out ideas and is basically repeating themselves and the story is more or less going around and around in the same endless circle and nothing is progressing. And well, I'm bored and frustrated and writing a better story about the characters in my head. If I can predict what they will do next, or what they do next annoys or frustrates or offends or just, well doesn't work for me, I give up on the story and hunt for a story that does entertain.
I'm not positive, but I'm guessing this is most likely true of most people? What do you think?
I won't bore you with tv series and books given up on.
3. Five Moments of Buffy (series) and Angel (series) that I loved:
Buffy
1. The scene between Buffy and Spike in Intervention, when she pretends to be the robot to get information from him.
2. The sex scene between Spike and Buffy in Smashed.
3. Buffy killing Angel in Becoming Part II - this is an amazingly good sequence, he is about to kill her, and tells her that she has nothing left, but him. He has broken her. But she turns the tables on him and says...no, I have me, and you don't have any power here. Then, just before she kills him, he gets his soul back, but she kills him anyway, drives it home.
4. Buffy's Speech to Spike in Never Leave ME - where she tells him she believes in him.
5. Spike's speech to Buffy in Beneath Me - where he tells her that he got his soul.
Angel
1. Cordelia taking charge and fighting the ghost in Room with A View
2. Wesley and Lilah - the scene between them in Home
3. the fight sequence between Spike and Angel, where Spike lifts up the cross and tells Angel - "You can't bear the sight of me, because every time you look at me, you see all the horrible things you did, and are, you tried to make me into you. But you failed. I'm not you! I'll never be you." (or something to that effect)
4. The last scene in Damage - between Spike and Angel, where Spike states..."who am I to complain, I did horrible things..." And Angel says,"she's a victim, an innocent" and Spike replies..."so were we", both say in unison - "once upon at time".
5. When Wes breaks Faith out of jail in order to save Angel from himself.
4. Five Positive Things:
1. Bugs appear to be gone, even if the apartment still sort of smells like floral raid...but it is getting better.
2. It's Friday.
3. Tomorrow is supposed to be warm and sunny
4. Fantastic Mr. Fox is sitting on my tv stand courtesy of netflix
5. Bronchitis is getting better...and did I just say, Friday? Which means tomorrow is Sat, my favorite day of the week. Never been much of a Sunday person - goes back to school, I suppose.
Like every other kid on the planet - I found myself stressing over last minute homework that I'd put off until Sunday, in order to enjoy Friday and Saturday.
2. There was a question this week that peaked my interest and I meant to answer last night in a post but got sidetracked and wrote about Wonder Woman and feminism - blame flist for that one.
Anyhow - the question was - what would it take for you to stop watching a tv series?
I want to extend that question to what would it take for you to stop reading or watching a fictional series - book, comics, television, or film?
For me, it depends. Can be a variety of things. But usually - it's just plain boredom. I've lost interest. There are situations...rare ones, that I stop reading or watching because I'm offended or find it the content unreadable or unwatchable. As there are also rare instances in which the characters are well, no longer recognizable.
The last two situations apply to tv shows or books I was fannish about or loved then gave up on out of abject disappointment.
There are also situations in which I realize the writer has run out ideas and is basically repeating themselves and the story is more or less going around and around in the same endless circle and nothing is progressing. And well, I'm bored and frustrated and writing a better story about the characters in my head. If I can predict what they will do next, or what they do next annoys or frustrates or offends or just, well doesn't work for me, I give up on the story and hunt for a story that does entertain.
I'm not positive, but I'm guessing this is most likely true of most people? What do you think?
I won't bore you with tv series and books given up on.
3. Five Moments of Buffy (series) and Angel (series) that I loved:
Buffy
1. The scene between Buffy and Spike in Intervention, when she pretends to be the robot to get information from him.
2. The sex scene between Spike and Buffy in Smashed.
3. Buffy killing Angel in Becoming Part II - this is an amazingly good sequence, he is about to kill her, and tells her that she has nothing left, but him. He has broken her. But she turns the tables on him and says...no, I have me, and you don't have any power here. Then, just before she kills him, he gets his soul back, but she kills him anyway, drives it home.
4. Buffy's Speech to Spike in Never Leave ME - where she tells him she believes in him.
5. Spike's speech to Buffy in Beneath Me - where he tells her that he got his soul.
Angel
1. Cordelia taking charge and fighting the ghost in Room with A View
2. Wesley and Lilah - the scene between them in Home
3. the fight sequence between Spike and Angel, where Spike lifts up the cross and tells Angel - "You can't bear the sight of me, because every time you look at me, you see all the horrible things you did, and are, you tried to make me into you. But you failed. I'm not you! I'll never be you." (or something to that effect)
4. The last scene in Damage - between Spike and Angel, where Spike states..."who am I to complain, I did horrible things..." And Angel says,"she's a victim, an innocent" and Spike replies..."so were we", both say in unison - "once upon at time".
5. When Wes breaks Faith out of jail in order to save Angel from himself.
4. Five Positive Things:
1. Bugs appear to be gone, even if the apartment still sort of smells like floral raid...but it is getting better.
2. It's Friday.
3. Tomorrow is supposed to be warm and sunny
4. Fantastic Mr. Fox is sitting on my tv stand courtesy of netflix
5. Bronchitis is getting better...and did I just say, Friday? Which means tomorrow is Sat, my favorite day of the week. Never been much of a Sunday person - goes back to school, I suppose.
Like every other kid on the planet - I found myself stressing over last minute homework that I'd put off until Sunday, in order to enjoy Friday and Saturday.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 08:09 am (UTC)Preach it! I couldn't agree more.
Though Mariah hasn't convinced me to read Willingham's book. A lot of what she addressed in her post didn't even touch the heart of the concerns about failure in characterization and mythos. She barely skimmed the surface with the issues of Spike's mischaracterization, but didn't even realize that it's all the characters who aren't being written well. Oh, and the dialogue is shitty. This is the Whedonverse, Willingham. Write with wit or get out. ;-)
what would it take for you to stop watching a tv series?
I tend to quit series when the magic is lost, when some essential dynamic changes. I never quit BtVS because the most important magic was in Buffy's character and how I connected with her and the emotional resonance of the story. But one thing I do mourn is the loss of witty dialogue in the later seasons compared to early BtVS. The joy of wordplay is lacking. Still there, but not as abundant as it once was.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 10:39 pm (UTC)After perusing them - I'd say that's the main problem. They aren't witty.
Which is partly why Spike is so OOC - because that's about 80% of the character - the snarky wit. If you can't write snark - you probably shouldn't be writing Spike. (That said, Herself_nyc who is anything but witty, was able to pull of an interesting Spike characterization without wit. So it can be done. And there are episodes in both series that Spike is more poet than snark - which work beautifully. Willingham can't do either. Plus the comics - sort of call for wit - they are heavily dialogue based.)
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 08:34 am (UTC)Nods. That entire sequence was brilliantly staged and written.
Good list!
Glad to hear the bronchitis is easing up.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 09:48 am (UTC)Re the whole IDW's debacle, though Mariah Huehner's letter was decent and sincere, she didn't convince me: the previews I've read seem so off, I loath his Spike with such a fiery passion that I don't care what he will do with him. The character is broken for me and I'm even struggling for this hatred to not touch Btvs Spike. As for the plot with Illyria, who was the only character I really appreciated in ATS5 it pushes red buttons because of the idiocy (IMO)of its premices, without saying anything of the sexism it carries.
You've asked what could stop somebody watch TV series: for me there's three major causes: idiocy, sneaky torture apology, sneaky death penalty apology.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 10:30 am (UTC)I approve of this plan.
I'm more likely to give up on a show out of disgust than boredom. If it's getting boring, there's still a chance it'll pick up again. Whereas, character derailment is very difficult to come back from.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 12:19 pm (UTC)I usually won't quit reading a book because if I'm bored I have speed reading skills I'll employ to just plow through to the ending. I think there have only been a few times I've been so totally bored and disconnected that I didn't even want to find out the ending.
With movies: I hate walking out and wasting the money, so I'm usually wary about doing to movies in the first place. I would rather see something I'll love on DVD than pay good money at the theater for something I'm bored by. Normally I'll sit through the entire film and then make fun of it to all of my friends and family later.
But TV is a real time waster if the show isn't good... and normally I don't have to even try to give it up: I'll end up reading, going online, or channel surfing when I'm bored without even thinking about why the show was boring me.... It is only later that I realize that I had stopped watching the show, so clearly there is no reason to tune into it any more.
It is usually bad dialogue, predictable plots, and uninteresting stock characters who bore me... and I was bored with Avatar even with the pretty in front of me (the sameness and cartooniness of the pretty Pandora kept that from being visually engaging, for me)... but I can't make fun of it if I don't stay for the whole movie!
BTW Last nights Merlin was a winner! No spoilers, but we get a lot more of Tony Head (and I do love him!) and Jane Seymore was hilarious!
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 01:39 am (UTC)I read them in the book store today. Or rather scanned. Not really worth your time, money, or energy - not worth anyone's. They are basically male romance novels. I coined the term after watching Frank Miller's Sin City - which was definitely a male romance novel. And in some respects they remind me a lot of Frank Miller's comics, also Raymond Chandler - although they are far better writers. So if you want to read something along those lines? Check those guys out. These are sort of the bargain basement version. Not all that different than 85% of the other comics in the store.
I ended up, via your recommendation, buying Felicia Day's The Guild instead, along with Terry Moore's Echo. And a free comic - b/c you know, free comic book day.
I admittedly enjoyed Avatar more than you did, ;-). But I can't say it was memorable. The best bits were the floating seed thingies. Also 3D makes human actors look funky. It's not a medium I enjoy. I agree with Downey Jr. - 3D is ruining movies.
With movies: I hate walking out and wasting the money, so I'm usually wary about doing to movies in the first place. I would rather see something I'll love on DVD than pay good money at the theater for something I'm bored by. Normally I'll sit through the entire film and then make fun of it to all of my friends and family later.
Oh god, yes. So agree. Also movie theaters have become uncomfortable - what with the cell phones, and the commericals. Much better to rent via netflix. That way - if you hate it - you can just send it back.
No worries. I think I've only walked out of one movie in my lifetime, not that there weren't numerous films that I wanted to walk out of.
Transformers - I came very very close to leaving in the middle of.
That and Moulin Rouge - which gave me a splitting head-ache. But Superman IV the Quest for Peace - I think may have been the one I walked out on? Can't remember. Was with four other people at the time and they wanted to leave as badly as I did. It was in England, we were in a small town, with nothing to do one evening.
I usually won't quit reading a book because if I'm bored I have speed reading skills I'll employ to just plow through to the ending. I think there have only been a few times I've been so totally bored and disconnected that I didn't even want to find out the ending.
A few years back, I gave myself permission to stop reading a book in the middle if I got bored. Of course, I probably should add - that when I get bored or frustrated with a book - I skip ahead to see if it gets better. I'll often read the end. If it's good, I'll keep going. If it sucks or I find myself not intrigued? I give up. Often it is just my mood. I'm very moody reader. I've been known to give up on books and then pick them up again a year or so later, and love them to death.
I remember reading a Lymond Book by Dorothy Dunnett ( a series that
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 02:02 am (UTC)I can't wait to hear what you think!
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 01:51 pm (UTC)Obviously the 'verse has done similar things, I can remember being very unhappy with the distance between the Scoobies in BtVS s4, however the last episodes of that season, starting with the Yoko Factor pretty much dealt with every concern I'd had about their relationship, and made it clear that this was something that was bothering the characters too. In a sense it validated my viewing experience, and convinced me that the parts I hadn't enjoyed (let's focus on the Scoobies relationship and leave out stuff like Adam 'cause that's never going to get better) were necessary, as a result I had a better feeling towards the season afterwards and could gladly go back and watch it. Over on AtS they had their big s4 reveal that Cordelia had been possessed for a long time. In the context of s4 it worked, Cordelia's behaviour was something that was upsetting not only the viewers but the other characters - they never suspected the truth but at least Cordelia's actions weren't presented as unremarkable, what's more the audience found out well before the characters what was going on. However AtS went further and used the possession to explain Cordelia's behaviour in s3, which I don't think worked as well since we'd had a season of both the characters and the show trying to sell us on Cordelia as a selfless, heroic character and the awesomeness of Angel/Cordelia. It worked for some, but to me it felt like retroactive damage control for a season that had a lot of problems - and hey, I own AtS s4 on dvd, I have never watched s3 a second time.
All of this is a very long-winded way to get to some questions that no one's going to get the answers to for months. Is this just damage control for both comics series? Or is the story really there?
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 06:25 pm (UTC)Agree
Date: 2010-05-02 01:12 am (UTC)At any rate, I agree with everything you articulated so well above. It's the journey that matters not the destination. If you don't enjoy reading about or watching the ride, if the ride doesn't resonate for you, or intrigue, why bother? Also if you stop liking or caring about the characters - where they end up doesn't really matter.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 06:27 pm (UTC)Well either that or when a show starts boring me.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 06:28 pm (UTC)Too true.
I appreciated Mariah's post but nothing in the world could coax me into reading IDW's Angel series.
At this point, I'm just glad they haven't brought Lindsey back.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 10:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 08:10 pm (UTC)I'm very picky in my choice of reading material to begin with so I rarely give up on a book though it does happen. I recently started "The Gate at the Stairs" by Lorrie Moore because a friend raved about it but gave up in the middle of the book because the POV character was beginning to get on my nerves.
After 5 years of heavy comic reading I gave up on them at 15 as they were no longer satisfying me.
I'm also picky as to what I'll watch. These days I don't watch comedy or reality shows and I'm careful which drama shows I view as the networks tend to cancel them at the drop of a hat the minute their ratings go down. There's nothing more aggravating then being invested in a show and then it's suddenly canceled ("Alien Nation" and "Angel" come to mind) so it's unusual for me to stop watching a show as often the networks take the decision out of my hands. With movies I always read the reviews and recently I find very few movies that I want to get out of the house and pay some $10 or more dollars to watch so I generally wait for movies to come out on DVD or TV. The internet is so much more interesting and as I spend more time on it, being that there still in only 24 hours in a day, something's got to give.
Shakatany
no subject
Date: 2010-05-01 08:35 pm (UTC)Then the creators decided to make a deliberate play for ratings, killing off Kes because she was "too boring" and inserting Seven of Nine. Instead of the wise and short-lived Ocampan nurse, they opted for a talking computer clad in a catsuit and heels. No points for guessing who the producers were trying to appeal to. The actress had to be given oxygen in the first few days of shooting, her corset was so tight. From that point on, the series became less about the crew's journey, and became the Seven of Nine show. Most storylines revolved around her slow return to humanity, to the extreme detriment of the show. (In my opinion, anyway)
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 10:33 pm (UTC)Voyager was the only Trek franchise that had a female leader/Captain,
and was up to a point, not sexist.
I adored bits of it. Other bits, not so much.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 01:17 am (UTC)I read very fast so if a book has grabbed me I don't generally put it down until I finish. If I do put it down, I wasn't interested and don't go back.
I walked out of a movie a few months ago. Was at a multiplex so I just went to a different movie. I can't remember what I walked out of, there were spiders and John C. Reilly, and a circus, but I ended up in Zombieland which was fun.
And I liked your five things lists a lot!
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 10:26 pm (UTC)Have exactly the same problem. Recently deleted all of Damages, because I realized that I was not going to watch it. Am on the verge of deleting quite a few others as well. Too many tv shows, and not enough time. And I'm admittedly a moody tv watcher.
I walked out of a movie a few months ago. Was at a multiplex so I just went to a different movie. I can't remember what I walked out of, there were spiders and John C. Reilly, and a circus, but I ended up in Zombieland which was fun.
Ah that weird vampire flick - The Vampire's Apprentice? Horrid reviews. And it had spiders? Ugh. Sooo glad I skipped that one.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 04:12 am (UTC)It's still 1) Written for 13 year olds-- and stupid 13 year olds at that 2) rife with OOC dialog 3) made even more bland by the mediocre artwork.
Uggh. I read the same IDW editorial comment on Spike that you did (or I think so), and I don't care what they have planned for him, because it can't excuse any of the above problems. The Buffy series, even with its weaknesses here and there, is still vastly above Willingham's dreck.
I can't really comment on the issues that some fans are having with the Spike character since I haven't been following the last few issues, but I can empathise because they've crapped all over Illyria, a character I love the way many love Spike. Has anyone working on this current arc actually ever listened to the way Illyria speaks and acts?
Question-- have you read the "Almost Human" series, where Gunn and Illyria go on a road trip of sorts? Now that's a damn fine piece of work, IMO. Great art, dialog spot on, characterization spot on. No problem if I want to accept it as canon.
no subject
Date: 2010-05-02 07:21 pm (UTC)It's still 1) Written for 13 year olds-- and stupid 13 year olds at that 2) rife with OOC dialog 3) made even more bland by the mediocre artwork.
It feels very much as if it were written for people who are around Connor's age or close to it, and interested in that character or identify strongly with him. Connor is the hero of the story,
and at times it feels a bit like his wet-dream come to life.
Which, works, I guess. That said - I would not suggest any of the Connor shippers on my flist, of which there are a few, to read this. The writing is fairly juvenile in tone. Set very much to a third grade audience.
Question-- have you read the "Almost Human" series, where Gunn and Illyria go on a road trip of sorts? Now that's a damn fine piece of work, IMO. Great art, dialog spot on, characterization spot on. No problem if I want to accept it as canon.
Maybe some day it will come out as a trade. (shrugs).
I think Peter David - wrote that one? As far as I can tell Peter David and Brian Lynch are the only two writers hired by IDW who can handle the Angelverse with any degree of accuracy, wit, or intelligence. Didn't realize it was that hard to write. Apparently is. ;-)
As for Illyria? I can see why you ship her. She was my second favorite thing about S5 and the reason that I was annoyed the show got canceled. I would have been perfectly happy if they killed off Angel, and did a sixth season with just Illyria, Gunn, Spike, and Wes...which I think was the Spike movie.