Cranky Buffyverse Villian Poll
Nov. 21st, 2009 04:33 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shadowkatIn a crappy mood. The weather mocks me with its beauty. So a poll about villianous acts in the Buffyverse. The worst ones. The best villians. The lamest villians. And villianous or indefensible acts by favorite characters or what we think are indefensible acts, everyone's mileage varies on this, I'm certain. Actually the biggest flamewars online have been over the indefensible acts of popular characters and whether they are redeemed. I'm curious to see where the vast majority of the Buffy lj fandom that happens to read or occassionally read my journal falls on this point. Course the fear of doing polls is no one will respond, memes are easier in that regard. The other problem with polls is you can't edit after posting and there are just so many ticky boxes. So if not on the list, provide a comment. But remember to
be respectful of other's views, particular those that make you scratch your head and go, huh?
[Poll #1488559]
be respectful of other's views, particular those that make you scratch your head and go, huh?
[Poll #1488559]
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no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 10:11 pm (UTC)it is hard for me to pick favorites because I loved a lot of the villains:
it is funny, even though Season 4 is my favorite season, I think Adam is lame... but Adam is only the monster/creation... really what needed to be defeated was The Initiative: the Government/Military thinking they could use demons as weapons. They can never control any weapons they make.
It is equally hard to pick the lamest, many of the villains were kind of formulaic ... but I just wouldn't focus on them so long as they didn't get too much screen time (Glory was just given too much screen time IMO).
The worst action is also highly debatable, so I went for the one (the only one) that still makes me cry every time... and Giles finding Jenny in his apt always kills me.
Personally I think everyone is always redeemable, but of course the Watchers Council never even considered themselves at fault! Poor Wesley was their man, and unredeemed on BtVS, but he did grow (to have all new problems) on Ats.
Anyway, thanks for this... it is so fun to get back to thinking about all of this!
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 03:17 am (UTC)Or they feel a need to explain their answers.
This poll is dicey because at least two of the questions have lead to nasty flamewars online mainly because the issues reflected in those two questions reflect real issues, buttons that people feel very strongly about. (Not everyone believes that an act can be redeemed or can be defended. Mileage varies the most I've found in the indefensible act and redemptive arc bits. This is true in real life as well, when I worked as in defender project and as an intern in the public defender's project, as well as in Domestic Violence - I discovered mileage varied. Some people see the world in very absolute terms, others see it as being far more complicated.)
Polls are better than memes in a way, because you feel less exposed, you can just vote and be anynonmous. And by doing so, you can see how others view things - but without engaging directly and fighting one another. It's safer. Or so I've found.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 04:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 04:47 am (UTC)And I'm not sure Cordy really had much of a redemptive arc in Buffy. Also there's less risk in a meme, with a poll - if no one participates, but you, you are sitting there with the equivalent of egg on your face.
But Polls are far more interesting. All a meme does is reveal what you think. Interacting with it is difficult. It's very - look at me, very ego-centric.
And you're right it's hard to know if anyone else has done it. And from a participant or reader standpoint - memes are work for participants - instead of just clicking on a ticky box - you have to cut past the questions, delete the answers, and write new answers. Time consuming. A poll on the other hand is fun, you click a box, you see how others responded and you get the reward of seeing that you may not be alone in all your views. While at the same time, noting there are people who feel the exact opposite.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 03:29 pm (UTC)Well if it makes you feel any better, it would never have occurred to me to include Andrew either. Killing Jonathan was terrible (I always loved Jonathan), but Andrew was being so continually manipulated/haunted by The First/Warren that I'm not sure that the killing seemed like a real thing to Andrew. I think you're right, that he was pretty much insane at the time.
I think I liked Andrew (in Season 7 of BtVS, and in Ats S5) more than a lot of people, but I agree w/you that his presence was inconsequential and not really necessary to the poll. But of course it is always interesting to hear from people who considered him very consequential!
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 10:11 pm (UTC)Also the only consensus seems to be that the annoited one was the lamest villian. Not complete consensus.
The one thing this poll demonstrates and reassuringly validates is the degree to which mileage varies. It does vary quite a bit. Actually my review of Caprica demonstrated that as well. I apparently liked Caprica more than everyone else did, not all that surprising - since everyone else likes Doctor Who more than I do. (grins)
no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 10:31 pm (UTC)Also, I chose Faith killing the volcanologist for worst act ever, but that's only because there was no ticky box for anything Warren did. I think that Warren's attempted rape and murder of Katrina is actually the worst thing ever and only picked what Faith did because it was premeditated murder by a character with a soul.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 02:08 am (UTC)Yup, same here.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 03:05 am (UTC)But ran out of ticky boxes and I also kept drawing a blank (ie forgetting about him.)
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 02:50 am (UTC)Didn't mention Andrew because...I either ran out of ticky boxes or just forgot. LOL!
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 04:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-21 11:03 pm (UTC)My favourite villain was Thre Mayor so I chose him but Caleb might have been the best in terms of female empowerment. He was the ultimate villain and made a lot of sense for the last season.
Giles drugging Buffy was really painful to watch.
As for the most satisfying redemptive arc it's Spike's of course. I do think that his not giving up Dawn was a key moment (pun intended)in his redemption journey.
And I'm not convinced by Willow's.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 04:53 am (UTC)Willow's reminded me a great deal of Angel's - in which the character's excused her actions because she was "under the influence" and it wasn't really her. And I don't think that was the case - the writers in a way played with that pov in Killer in Me and Sleeper - as well as Him, demonstrating that it is not that simple.
Also, I think part of the reason we got the comic books - Willow gets a lot of focus in them - is Whedon may have felt unsatisfied with her arc.
Thanks for responding. I'm finding how people responded to be rather interesting.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 12:42 am (UTC)The Annointed One was the biggest mistake as a villain. As if Buffy was going to stake a little kid vampire. Willow and Cordelia were a mistakes as serious villains also, but not for story reasons.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 02:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 04:58 am (UTC)I admittedly sort of forgot about him. He just seemed so inconsquential to me. Which I guess was the big joke - everyone forgot about Andrew. (But I probably should have tried to fit him in there). The problem is you run out of ticky boxes.
But he was still easier to take than the Annoited One, which I guess was great in theory but did not work on screen - first he was a kid, he's going to get older and how do you explain that with a vampire? Second - Buffy couldn't stake a little vampire kid on-screen.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 01:02 am (UTC)In my mind, Spike won the redemption sweepstakes with the most redemptive act and the best redemptive arc.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 02:33 am (UTC)P.S. Does the Watcher's Council really count as a "popular character"? I never liked 'em. They always seemed like Buffy's secondary nemesis to me.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 03:02 am (UTC)Doing these polls off the cuff, can be tricky. Also should have put Andrew down as lame villian (I had him there for a while but I ran out of room.) I should have gotten rid of the Mayor in that category (no one is going to select him as a lame villian.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 10:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 10:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 01:42 pm (UTC)Choosing amongst the worst acts wasn't easy either because they are very difficult to compare. And I couldn't make a choice for the following part: in terms of fiction, I'm not sure there's really something you can't come back from: had it been skilfully done, I suppose, even a redemption arc for Warren could have been possible.
The most redemptive act wasn't an easy choice either: so many criteria there: is it in each character's story, in the whole show? Some of these acts I do not even see as redemptive at all, in the sense they aren't related to any specific wrong or crime done by the character (For example, Xander saving Willow)
no subject
Date: 2009-11-22 10:02 pm (UTC)I think that is the key - as to whether the fictional character has had a good redemptive arc or has been redeemed in a viewer's eyes.
Does the act that redeems the character have to relate directly to the specific wrong or can it be unrelated?
For example - Xander in my view redeemed himself for what he did to Anya in Entropy and Hell's Bells - in Selfless - when he stood up to Buffy and tried to save Anya's life, then in Him took Spike into his home. The acts were related.
But his stopping Willow from destroying the world did not redeem him for those acts. To be forgiven/achieve redemption, you have to acknowledge you did something wrong, take full responsibility, request forgiveness, and demonstrate a desire to not repeat the pattern, to push beyond it. At least that's how I define it.
Spike for example, in my view, redeemed himself for killing slayers and dissing Wood, when he stood and took at all the vampires with his soul, and then at the end of Damage, admitted to Angel that he was wrong for attacking slayers and Dana had been right to torture and hurt him for it. And Dana was a monster that he as much as Walter had created. He didn't see her as a victim, any more than he saw Wood, or others, he just saw the violence - in Damage he finally recognizes the victims. While search for a soul redeemed him for his attempted rape of Buffy - he took responsibility for it and sought a means to make sure it did not happen again and went out of his way not to do it again.
So linkage does help in a way. Could Warren have been redeemed?
I don't know. He didn't appear to see himself as doing anything wrong or rather, he didn't appear to mind that he was.
You're right there is a lot of criteria - it isn't an easy poll. Was harder to create than I expected. And I regret leaving out Andrew and Jonathan...but no room.
a lame 'most unforgivable' choice, but symptomatic of larger issues
Date: 2009-11-23 05:35 pm (UTC)I'm still steamed about that lie he told Buffy in "Becoming, pt. 2" (Willow says 'kick his ass'), since he never had to answer for it or for the devastating consequences it helped create for Buffy (whom he then proceeded to punish when she returned in season 3), and the fact that he summoned the song-and-dance demon in OMWF (and thus inadvertently caused the deaths of a number of random Sunnydale citizens) but a) didn't seem to be in any hurry to 'fess up to it, even when it became clear that Dawn was taking the rap for his actions, and b) never had to suffer any consequences or blame for that choice . . . well, that's just a very telling symptom (it seems to me) of the larger illness.
I can't decide whether Xander seemingly got off relatively scot-free for his destructive choices because he was the Joss-stand-in character and got special 'most-favored' treatment, OR because the writers held him to be weaker than everybody else on the show and thus his bad choices were seen as 'only to be expected' from someone like him. Either way, it doesn't strike me as particularly healthy.
no subject
Date: 2009-11-23 06:18 pm (UTC)And it's not so much that I don't think Willow was redeemed. It's more that I was dissatisfied with how her arc was resolved with the whole magic addiction, etc. Since she failed to recognize what was really wrong, I'm not sure what she learned.