shadowkat: (Tv shows)
[personal profile] shadowkat
Watched Revenge and Ringer again this week. And while it is unfair to compare them, it's difficult not to. Revenge is the episodic/serial combo that I think many Ringer fans were looking/hoping for and never got because Ringer is a straight up serial, complete with cliff-hanger plot twists. Revenge on the other hand is turning out to be in some respects an "anti-Fugitive set-up", although that's admittedly pushing it, since the character stays in the same place and does plan everything she is doing in detail, while the Fugitive was sort of unorganized and reacting to stuff. In other words, we have a "pro-active" protagonist for a change of pace, normally they are "re-active". So this is new. Also, Revenge couldn't be further from the "save one person each week" trope that the Fugitive started way back when. Revenge is more along the lines of the "destroy the rich wicked nit wit each week". Or as one friend likes to put it - exact "justice". Feels very Alexander Dumas to me, and the characters are as twisty as Dumas' were, also I think the writing is as clunky and cliche at times (admittedly not a fan of Alexander Dumas writing, just his plots - I think he overwrites (over-wrote?) or writes in flowery prose). Perhaps he's better in French? It could very well be the translation.

[ I've always wondered about translations...would I like Tolstoy better if I knew Russian? Or Garcia Marquez less if I understand Spanish? I know Voltaire's Candide and Georges Simenon's Maigret read differently in their native tongues, as did Le Petite Prince. Can the texture, the beauty, the meaning be lost in the translation? Makes me wish I had a facility for language - no one in my immediate family does, although we all did try really hard - Momster took four years of German, Popster - six of Russian, Kidbro - three of Spanish, and Me? Six of French. Of the four of us, only my father and I can read the language or do an occasional bit from it - but we're also the only ones who attempted and failed miserably at it in College. My inability to learn languages crushed all hope I had of becoming either a diplomat or a foreign correspondent. I guess I should count myself lucky that the language that I am somewhat proficient at is the international language of the moment - English. Sorry for the whiny tangent.]

Anyhow...Revenge starts out the same as Ringer did this week - with a mislead, that turns out to be dream. Revenge does this the correct way, while Ringer makes a complete mess of it. If you want to know how not to do a false dream sequence that starts out an episode - that's pretty much it.

Ringer - the dream is basically Andrew confronting Bridget!Siobhan with Bridget's bag and evidence that she's actually Bridget. Which would be fine - except it is out of the blue. And does not fit at all with the last episode. I thought, wait a minute, did I miss an episode? No, it's a dream that's the only explanation. And yep, sure enough, ghost Siobhan, drowned shows up and obviously it is one. Bridget!Siobhan wakes up screaming and I roll my eyes then giggle for five minutes at how incredibly bad it was verging on unintentional parody. Compare to Revenge - which also starts out this week's episode with a dream sequence, except it makes sense. Emily dreams that Victoria Grayson has figured out who she is and has shown up with a Swat team. The marketing people cleverly teased this bit in trailers - so we thought it would occur later in the episode and not be a dream. At first you aren't sure...it makes sense that Victoria could have figured it out - after all, we know she's hired someone to investigate Emily. But with the Swat team, no, most likely a dream, but you never know. Was relieved when she woke up. This time to Sam - the dog - scratching at her door. She thinks it is a burgular and pulls out her gun. (Hint at the murder that took place in the first episode - was it Emily's gun that did the deed?). This played well, provided just the right level of suspense followed by relief.

While Ringer is entertaining...it's terribly clunky writing wise, more so than well most of the new fall tv shows, which is saying something, I guess. The plot and story just don't quite work. I keep wanting to take the writers aside and gently slap them into shape - edit their story, fix things.

In this week's episode, Gemma overhears Bridget!Siobhan and Henry talking. Now, we aren't told how much she heard, but it is a good bet she heard enough to figure out there's something off about Siobhan. Also, Gemma found out in the same episode, not too long before this conversation that Siobhan has a twin sister named Bridget who is on the run from the FBI, and Siobhan claims visited her and left town - although the FBI isn't buying it. A twin that Gemma never knew existed. So, she overhears Henry tell Siobhan!Bridget or Siobet that he's upset that Siobhan no longer looks at him the way she did oh about a week or two ago, and now all of sudden she looks at Andrew that way. Granted she also hears about their affair and that he thinks Siobhan is pregnant with his kid, and Siobhan doesn't care about Gemma. But Siobhan insists this isn't true and wants him to just walk away. Which is a lot of information to digest all at once. Add to this - the writers choose to have Siobet eat meat, which Siobhan hasn't eaten in three years. And Gemma reacts to it.

So...you'd think Gemma would figure it out on her own - Bridget is playing Siobhan and Siobhan has taken off or is gone? Or at the very least they'd let Gemma figure it out? But nooo - instead, Gemma races off to leave, and Siobet hunts her down - running into the FBI guy again - who has somehow snuck into their exclusive and gated retreat out in the Hamptons - to confront her. Siobet manages to dissuade FBI guy, but not all that effectively - since in her frantic hunt for Gemma, she leaves her cell phone behind - which allows FBI guy to discover - whoa Siobet has been calling Bridget's sponsor Malcolm Ward. Siobet finally finds Gemma, and oh, maybe five - six feet away from FBI guy - blurts out to an angry and threatening Gemma, that she isn't Siobhan, she's Bridget! This, she blurts out to a woman she barely knows, and is threatening to tell Andrew about her affair and her lies (both of which she could actually cover fairly well, since Andrew is not really close friends of Gemma or trusts Gemma - as shown by prior episodes). Add to this - the fact that we've been told that Bridget is being careful about her identity and not wanting anyone to know. Her blurting this out to Gemma is so far out of character and so illogical, it's not even funny. And it was not necessary. It would have been far better and far easier to have Gemma figure it out on her own - they had laid the groundwork. Gemma isn't stupid. And it would have been more suspenseful and interesting. Doing it the other way - was melodramatic and showy. It did not work. And that's what is wrong with the writing in this thing - they go for the easy, they don't earn their moments. It's sloppy. I can write better than this, and so can 90% of my flist.

I'm sticking with the story, because I obviously like aspects of it. There is a lot of potential there. They just need to get better writers. For example, I find whatever Siobhan is up to in Paris, interesting. She's clearly going after her husband's company. Not quite sure why though. And I'm equally curious why she hates her sister, Bridget. I'm guessing there's more to that story than just Bridget's addiction. Siobhan - I'm still curious about. I'm also curious to see what Gemma does - I'm pretty sure she's going to try to blow Siobet out of the water - Gemma is a bit brassy. But not positive. Ringer isn't completely predictable, just sloppy and a bit soapy.

Switching to Revenge - the Momster and I are hooked. Granted it's far from perfect. We already tore apart last week's episode - there's a logic gap in the investigation in Emily Thorne in that episode that makes no sense to us. The investigator stated that he was able to get all this info on Emily Thorne but the period between 16-18, which was sealed by the juvenile court and they couldn't open. Okay, first off, she's changed her name - so the part about prison or juvenile record should be under Amanda Clark's name not Emily Thorne's. Second, why 16-18? Wouldn't it be 10-18? That's a weird time period. It makes no sense. How old is Emily Thorne, anyhow? She's apparently spent a lot of time planning this - as in years. Because as Emily Thorne - she managed to build a reputation as a wealthy volunteer and philanthropist, serving on various committees and as a volunteer for a politician's campaign. Also was on the Equestarian Team. That takes a lot of time, unless it was all fabricated, which it does not appear to be. So is she in her 30s or late/mid twenties? She's clearly not a teenager. Has to be late 20s, early 30s - to do all of that, and have the prison background. In some respects, I think this might have worked better if she were older - except then everyone else would have to be older too.

I'm loving the revenge of the week motif. This thing has apparently been set up as a sort of multi-part episodic serial. In that you have a character seeking vengeance or justice, each week they take down a different bad guy (sort of like Leverage but a lot more fun), building up to solving a central mystery. Through each episodic take-down you learn a bit more about the characters and why this is happening. So far that part is fairly well plotted. Has a few gaps here and there, but nothing major. It's also a nice subversion of the whole "save a person/redemptive arc" motif that we normally see in this particular trope. (Sign of the times?)

Characters? Nolan (the billionaire nerd who is clearly in love with Emily and aiding her) is rather fascinating. He's not at all what he seems. Actually none of the characters appear to be what they seem. Including the villianess - Victoria Grayson. The only character plot arc that does not work is the teen triangle. I keep wishing they would get rid of it. I can't stand those three characters. But Madeline Stowe's Victoria - the cold bitch, who may actually have a heart that she broke herself...is interesting. As is Emily Thorne - who may well be going down the same road as Victoria...whether she intends to or not. I see a definite "Heart of Darkness" theme emerging here. Revenge is very literary in some respects and I sense Philip Noyce's hand in the pot.

Emily's take down's are planned in detail and clearly months in advance. We are told, much like Leverage, after the fact, how she did it. We see the take-down from the pov of the victim, then we jump to Emily's point of view as to why, and then back to the victim's reaction, and finally Emily tells us and Nolan what happened to the victim, and we find out, through her conversation with Nolan how she accomplished it.

While far from perfect (please, this is ABC), it is better than most things I've seen on the broadcast networks of late. And highly entertaining. Not to mention the most innovative narrative style I've seen since maybe Lost. The Monster of the Week or Crime of the Week - is Emily's Justified Rich Victim of the Week. The mystery? How she pulls it off. The metaphor or theme - how this is effecting her, those around her, why she's doing it, and where it is leading. There's an odd cathartic thrill when Emily takes down her victims, even if you know she's chipping away at her own soul in the process. As her partner, Nolan, states : "You are beginning to scare me." Emily: "Good."

Date: 2011-10-07 04:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shipperx.livejournal.com
the Momster and I are hooked. Granted it's far from perfect. We already tore apart last week's episode - there's a logic gap in the investigation in Emily Thorne in that episode that makes no sense to us. The investigator stated that he was able to get all this info on Emily Thorne but the period between 16-18, which was sealed by the juvenile court and they couldn't open. Okay, first off, she's changed her name - so the part about prison or juvenile record should be under Amanda Clark's name not Emily Thorne's. Second, why 16-18? Wouldn't it be 10-18? That's a weird time period.

I could easily be wrong, but I couldn't help thinking that it's just too obvious a mistake. She's changed her name, hidden her money, and she just ... forgot? I keep thinking that was something she left to be found (and something, Victoria will tell Daniel and will make Victoria look like someone who is super suspicious who spies on him.

I may be giving the show too much credit, but I can't shake the notion that it's deliberate.

Hard to know how old Emily/Amanda is supposed to be, but the actress is 25.
Edited Date: 2011-10-07 04:10 am (UTC)

Date: 2011-10-07 04:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
I could easily be wrong, but I couldn't help thinking that it's just too obvious a mistake. She's changed her name, hidden her money, and she just ... forgot? I keep thinking that was something she left to be found (and something, Victoria will tell Daniel and will make Victoria look like someone who is super suspicious who spies on him.

Well that would definitely explain it. And I can see it happening. But, like you, not sure...if that would be giving the show too much credit?

Hard to know how old Emily/Amanda is supposed to be, but the actress is 25.

Assuming Amanda got out of prison at 18? She's done a lot in 7 years, if she's only 25.



Date: 2011-10-07 10:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dlgood.livejournal.com
Well, that Emily, she's a striver.

Date: 2011-10-07 10:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] local-max.livejournal.com
Curiously, I've only read Candide in French -- though it was more than a decade ago, while I was in high school, and I don't think I understood it all at the time. (The French was a little advanced for me.) I wonder what the English version is like. I can read French well, and hear and speak it fine, though I'm a touch below fluent, and can often not make out conversations in French films and the like the first time through.

Date: 2011-10-07 02:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cactuswatcher.livejournal.com
Four things make translation tough.
1. Poetic language. Poetry doesn't translate at all well, but people keep trying. For a poetically written novel like Dr. Zhivago, the imagery will come through fine, but the sound of it will be generally flat and unremarkable.

2. Humor. Humor does vary from culture to culture. Sometimes all that's needed for appreciation is to get in the swing of things. But an English-speaking novice first picking up something translated from Spanish or Russian can easily miss the some of the humor (or lack thereof) entirely.

I had discussion with a grad school friend once about a particular new translation of a Czech novel that we were both familiar with. He liked the new translation because it was complete and faithful to the Czech. I preferred an older translation which admittedly is a seriously abbreviated version. Basically I felt you had to know at least some Slavic or a lot of the jokes in the new translation fell flat. The older translation was uproariously funny which I felt gives an English Speaker a better feel for the original.

3. Slang. Works filled with slang are tough to translate and tough for a non-native speaker to read in the original. Solzhenitsyn's prison camp stories and novels are a prime example.

4. Dialect. I have a few of the Harry Potter books in Spanish. Hagrid's unique style of speech is totally lost in Spanish. I can imagine the same is much worse in foreign translations of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.

Date: 2011-10-07 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Poetic language. Poetry doesn't translate at all well, but people keep trying. For a poetically written novel like Dr. Zhivago, the imagery will come through fine, but the sound of it will be generally flat and unremarkable.

Except, Gabriel Garcia Marquez's style appears to in A Hundred Years of Solitude and Love in the Time of Cholera. I can't remember if he translated them himself, though. Some do, which of course does make a huge difference. Or Spanish to English might work better?

Slang. Works filled with slang are tough to translate and tough for a non-native speaker to read in the original. Solzhenitsyn's prison camp stories and novels are a prime example

I would think this would be impossible to translate.
I know it's hard for the native language speaker to always grasp slang - since it tends to be regional, ethnic/class/culture specific or generational. Some words mean one thing coming from one character, and something else from another. Slang is something you can only understand per context. Often the dictionary definition is the opposite of how it is being used.

(deleted comment)

Date: 2011-10-07 10:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
A native French speaker on my flist - recently stated that watching the French translation of OMWF was atrocious. It just did not translate very well at all.

Another native French speaker was attempting to translate West Side Story - and ran into a wall, with all the slang in the song America.

Date: 2011-10-07 07:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dlgood.livejournal.com
On translations -

As CW said, it can really depend upon the writer's idioms and styles. Tolstoy, so I'm told, doesn't really suffer all that much in translation to English, particularly in a case of War and Peace, which has significant amounts written in French anyway. His prose is often, prosaic, and that translates easier. Pushkin, OTOH, is very lyrical and poetic, even in his prose, and Russian readers claim to get more out of it.

Ringer vs. Revenge

The stylistic difference, to me, is that Revenge borrows very heavily from procedurals while running its arc. Whereas Ringer is a soap with a mystery at the core. Inasmuch as either have aspirations of succeeding "Damages", Revenge is farther along at this point.

Ringer really suffers from a lower-budget, lower-production value feel. Though I'm slipping more into seeing it as an unintentional comedy.

As per the nitpicks in Revenge - yeah - the younger triangle doesn't fit the rest of the show - it's coming straight out of S1 of The O.C. (without quippy Josh Schwartz dialogue) while the big kids are doing Dumas.

"Emily's" age should be deducible from the timeline she gave for when she was in college (not that I bothered to remember that) - I'm assuming there was a real "Emily Thorne" who was once also in Juvie with Amanda, probably disappeared, and whose name she's taken over. You wouldn't think Victoria would have forgotten about Amanda Clark.

The bigger timeline discontinuity is the dog, which would have to be - given all the flashbacks - pushing 20, which would make him the Methuselah of Yellow Labs.

Also, as an aside, Emily VanCamp has now totally sold me on her ability to play that character.

Date: 2011-10-07 09:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
Hee, I agree with all of the above.

The stylistic difference, to me, is that Revenge borrows very heavily from procedurals while running its arc. Whereas Ringer is a soap with a mystery at the core. Inasmuch as either have aspirations of succeeding "Damages", Revenge is farther along at this point.

Agreed. Revenge reminds me more of Damages, although Damages was tighter and more of a serial than episodic. Agreed that Revenge seems to be borrowing more from the procedural format. It also appears to be attempting to marry that format to the serialized soap opera. Which I find fascinating, the only other person I've seen attempt that was Joss Whedon. Although there may be others?
I don't think Damages did, it was more straight serial neither soap nor procedural.

Though I'm slipping more into seeing it as an unintentional comedy.

LOL! Me too. It amuses me at any rate, more so than most of the new sitcoms. Vamp Diaries is also at times a comedy, but like Buffy - I'm guessing it's intentional.

Ringer really suffers from a lower-budget, lower-production value feel.

While it's definitely improved from the pilot...it still feels slapped together in places. Would love to be a fly on the wall during those production, editing, and network meetings. Do they just have a really low budget? Or is it poorly produced? Hard to tell. Equally hard to tell how much or how little the network is fiddling or has fiddled with it? Odd - they appear to have spent their entire budget on the marketing campaign - it had a great marketing campaign.

As per the nitpicks in Revenge - yeah - the younger triangle doesn't fit the rest of the show - it's coming straight out of S1 of The O.C. (without quippy Josh Schwartz dialogue) while the big kids are doing Dumas.

I was going to say Gossip Girl (the kid brother of Jake (who has the dog and boat) was the kid brother on Gossip Girl except with darker hair and not as likable), but The OC works too - both being Josh Schwartz series. They really need to drop that story line - but it isn't going to happen any time soon - considering it's the teens who found the body. Oh well, maybe if the show survives past one season, they'll disappear?

I'm assuming there was a real "Emily Thorne" who was once also in Juvie with Amanda, probably disappeared, and whose name she's taken over.

That would make more sense and with Count of Monte Cristo.

The bigger timeline discontinuity is the dog, which would have to be - given all the flashbacks - pushing 20, which would make him the Methuselah of Yellow Labs.

LOL! I was wondering about that too...assuming she was 10 at the time she got the puppy and she's 25 now...that's what fifteen years?
Which isn't bad, but still an old dog. I've been told dogs usually live 12 years? Cats can live a lot longer. (Although mine never did.)

Also, as an aside, Emily VanCamp has now totally sold me on her ability to play that character.

I never had any doubts, but I also watched her in Brothers and Sisters...fairly good actress, quite versatile. She was in another show that I forget the name of that I watched once or twice. Thought she was older than 25. She must have started at 18.




Date: 2011-10-07 10:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dlgood.livejournal.com
Dog lifespans can vary depending upon breed. Usually, the bigger the dog, the shorter they live. We had a miniature schnauzer who lived to 17, but he was going blind and deaf and had to wear adult doggy diapers for the last few years.

The faithful dog that forever loves it's master no matter how long they've been apart is a classic (Odysseus' dog recognizes him after 20 years when no one else does) so I'm willing to go ahead and hand wave the timeline. It's symbolic. We'd much rather look at a handsome vigorous dog than a decrepit chihuahua.... and a Yellow Lab living to 20 is still more believable than a naturally longer lived cat that cares that much about a person...

Date: 2011-10-08 01:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shadowkat67.livejournal.com
True.

It's not that big a problem...and definitely a classic trope.
I think it may even be in Count of Monte Cristo.

They also need something...that sort of brings out another side to her. Finding Nolan/Jake friendship to be interesting in that regard as well.

Date: 2011-10-14 12:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rose-griffes.livejournal.com
Finally had time to watch episode 3 of Revenge. I'm not sure I'd agree that Nolan is in love with Emily. Their prickly relationship is one of my favorite bits of the show, though.

As for languages, sometimes it makes a huge difference, sometimes not. And similar languages can help--I had a Spanish-speaking friend tell me that the translation of The Little Prince kept a lot of the same feel as the original French but that the English version didn't retain the same charm.
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